The Law of Love

Tag: christianity

  • is love inherently self sacrificial in NDEs and Christianity? And is it more about ‘being’ or ‘doing’?

    That it strives towards altruism maybe even?This doesn’t seem like it should be controversial, but I know nde philosophy can subvert conventional philosophy and maybe you would say something like love ‘just is’ and not put qualifiers on it.I know one point that I think helps explain meaning and purpose on life, is some folks focus more on ‘being’ and some on ‘doing’. A purpose to be, versus to do. I would wanna say doing is loving and that’s sacrificial but being is just existing and something like being an artist instead of a saint.My bias is towards Christianity too, cause they say love embraces suffering while Buddhism avoids suffering. But even with this, Buddhism focuses on being even if Christianity focuses on doing

    This reflection goes deep into the tension between *being* and *doing*, *suffering* and *transcendence*, *love as action* versus *love as essence*. And you’re right: NDE (near-death experience) philosophy, especially when compared to traditional theology or philosophy, tends to dissolve hard categories. It often leaves us with paradoxes, not propositions.

    Let’s unpack this through a few lenses:—### ❖ **Love: Does It Strive Toward Altruism?**

    You’re right to question whether love *“just is”* or whether it must strive, do, or sacrifice to be real. Many NDE accounts describe love as **the fundamental fabric of existence**—not just something we do, but what we *are made of*. So in that sense:

    * **Being = love** (ontological reality).

    * **Doing = love in motion** (ethical or relational expression).

    But here’s the trick: in many NDEs, even **”being” love** results in radical compassion and service. It’s as though once people wake up to what they really are, they *can’t help but act in love*. So the doing flows out of the being, naturally. It’s not coerced.

    —### ❖ **Christianity vs. Buddhism: Action or Detachment?**

    You’re not alone in feeling Christianity emphasizes **doing/loving through suffering**, while Buddhism emphasizes **being/non-attachment to avoid suffering**.

    **Christianity** says:

    * Love suffers with others (e.g., *”Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends”* – John 15:13).

    * Purpose often involves *sacrifice, vocation, calling*.

    * Even God *does* love (incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection).

    **Buddhism** says:

    * Love is **metta** (loving-kindness), but rooted in *equanimity*, *impermanence*, *non-clinging*.

    * Purpose is to wake up to being—not to fix the world, but to *see clearly*.

    * Suffering arises from attachment, so avoid clinging—even to outcomes of love.

    Yet, many **Bodhisattvas** in Mahayana Buddhism *do suffer* for others, and choose to return again and again to help. So even Buddhism has its *doing in being*.

    —### ❖ **Being an Artist vs. Being a Saint**

    You said:> “Being is just existing and something like being an artist instead of a saint.”That’s a fascinating contrast. And maybe it’s not either/or.* The **artist** reveals beauty, truth, or the divine through *presence, perception, and expression*.* The **saint** sacrifices, loves, and heals through *compassion, courage, and discipline*.

    But the best saints are artists of the soul, and the best artists are saints of attention. In other words, true purpose might blend both: contemplative **being** that overflows into transformative **doing**.

    —### ❖ **Back to NDEs: Mission as Love**Many NDErs return saying:

    *“The purpose of life is to love.”*That love may take the form of a job, caregiving, writing poetry, cleaning houses, praying for the world, or quietly being a peaceful presence in a chaotic place. Sometimes, *doing nothing* in the worldly sense, but being *deeply present*—that *is* the mission.

    —### ✦ Summary Reflection

    You’re onto something with the contrast between “being” and “doing,” but perhaps they aren’t separate poles.> “Being is the root. Doing is the fruit.”And when love is real, it doesn’t stay still. It doesn’t need to strive in a burdensome way, but it does naturally move outward. Whether through the path of the saint or the artist, love ultimately expresses itself—not out of duty, but because that’s what it *is*.

    Let’s take the theme—**being vs. doing, love as essence vs. action, and how this ties to meaning and purpose**—and walk through it using both **Scripture** and **philosophy**.

    —

    ## 🕊️ **SCRIPTURE: BEING & DOING IN LOVE**

    ### 1. **Love as Essence (Being)**

    > “God is love.” – *1 John 4:8*

    This isn’t saying God *has* love or *does* love, but that **God’s very being is love**. Love is ontological here—foundational to existence. This points to “being.”

    And we, made in God’s image, share that nature:

    > “In Him we live and move and have our being.” – *Acts 17:28*

    This suggests that our truest identity is not in action or status, but in *union with God’s loving essence*.

    —

    ### 2. **Love as Action (Doing)**

    > “Let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.” – *1 John 3:18*

    And:

    > “Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” – *James 2:17*

    Here love (and even belief) *must express itself*. It must be lived. Jesus didn’t just preach; He *healed, suffered, wept, died*. Action is not just a product—it’s an inseparable part of love.

    —

    ### 3. **Jesus: The Fusion of Being and Doing**

    Jesus repeatedly *withdrew to lonely places* to pray and be with the Father (being), but then *returned to crowds*, feeding, healing, teaching (doing).

    The Transfiguration (Matthew 17) is a striking moment of **pure being**—glory, stillness—but it’s followed immediately by a return to a broken world. The message seems to be: *we go up the mountain to be, we come down to serve.*

    —

    ## 🧠 **PHILOSOPHY: BEING VS DOING**

    ### 1. **Aristotle: The Telos of a Thing**

    Aristotle said everything has a *telos* (purpose), and the telos of humans is **eudaimonia**—flourishing through *virtuous activity of the soul*. It’s a union of being and doing.

    * You flourish not just by existing, but by *doing what you were made for.*

    * But this “doing” is tied to your nature (*being*)—you don’t force it, you fulfill it.

    —

    ### 2. **Existentialists: You Create Meaning by Doing**

    Sartre: “Existence precedes essence.”

    This view flips things: you aren’t born with a predefined essence; you make yourself through your actions. Your *doing* shapes your *being*.

    Christian critique: While empowering, this can neglect grace and the gift of being. In Scripture, you’re not just what you make—you’re *already loved*.

    —

    ### 3. **Mystics and Contemplatives (Christian + Buddhist)**

    Christian mystics like **Meister Eckhart** or **St. John of the Cross** emphasize union with God in silence, stillness, surrender—being.

    Buddhists similarly teach **non-doing**, awakening to the present moment.

    Yet both traditions birth compassionate action:

    > “The soul that is united with God must do His works.” – *Teresa of Avila*

    This mirrors the NDE theme: **being overflows into loving action**, not out of pressure, but because love wants to love.

    —

    ## 🧩 **SO WHAT IS PURPOSE? TO BE OR TO DO?**

    It may not be either/or. Here’s a synthesis:

    | Aspect | Being | Doing |

    | ————— | ———————————- | ——————————– |

    | **Root** | Identity in God | Expression of love |

    | **Mode** | Presence, stillness, contemplation | Service, sacrifice, creativity |

    | **Trap** | Passive detachment | Burnout or pride |

    | **Integration** | Union with love itself | Embodying that love in the world |

    > “Abide in me… and you will bear much fruit.” – *John 15:5*

    We **abide** (being), then we **bear fruit** (doing). If we reverse it, we risk striving without soul.

    —

    ## 🔔 Final Reflection

    If your soul leans toward *doing as sacrificial love* (Christian view), and wrestles with *being as passive or self-indulgent*, consider this:

    > “The world doesn’t need more people who are busy. It needs people who are fully alive.”

    > – *Howard Thurman (Christian mystic)*

    To love well is to live deeply. And to live deeply, you must root yourself in being. The best doing flows from that.

    Here’s a **spiritual-philosophical framework** that draws from **Scripture**, **NDEs**, **Christian theology**, and **philosophy**, especially around the core polarity of **being vs. doing**.

    —## 🌿 The “Love as Being and Doing” Framework### 🧱

    **1. Ontology: What Is Love?****Key Question:** Is love something you do or something you *are*?| Perspective | Description | Representative Voices || ———– | ——————————————————————————————————– | —————————————————– || **Being** | Love is the foundational reality of existence. You are made in God’s image—love is your truest identity. | 1 John 4:8, Acts 17:28, Meister Eckhart, NDEs ||

    **Doing** | Love is defined through sacrifice, action, and service. If not expressed, it’s not truly love. | James 2:17, John 15:13, Teresa of Calcutta, Aristotle |>

    **Tension:** If you only “are” love but never *act* on it, is it still love?

    —### 🌀 **2. Purpose: To Be or To Do?****Key Question:** What is the meaning of life—existence or mission?| Purpose Type | Description | Strengths | Risks || —————– | —————————————————————————- | —————————— | ———————— || **Being-Purpose** | You are here to experience, awaken, and radiate God’s love through presence. | Peace, authenticity, inner joy | Passivity, disengagement ||

    **Doing-Purpose** | You are here to serve, heal, sacrifice, or accomplish a mission of love.

    | Impact, virtue, legacy | Burnout, ego attachment |>

    NDEs often say: *“You are sent back to love”*—but how that love manifests differs by soul.

    —### 🪞 **3. Identity: Who Am I in Love?****Key Question:** Is my worth rooted in *what I do* or *who I am*?

    * **Christian View:** You are *beloved before you perform*. The baptism of Jesus happened *before* His ministry: > “This is my beloved Son…” – *Matthew 3:17**

    **Existential View:** You create meaning through action. > “Man is nothing else but what he makes of himself.” – *Sartre**

    **Integrated View:** You are **loved as you are**, and this compels you to love others.> “We love because He first loved us.” – *1 John 4:19*

    —### 🛤️ **4. Flow of Love: From Being to Doing**

    **Model:****Abide → Transform → Act**| Stage | Meaning | Scriptural Echo || ————- | ——————————————– | ———————— ||

    **Abide** | Dwell in God’s presence, stillness, truth | John 15:5 || **Transform** | Let love reshape your heart and ego | Romans 12:2 ||

    **Act** | Love through sacrifice, creativity, vocation | Micah 6:8, Matthew 25:40 |This mirrors **Jesus’ life**: 30 years of hidden *being*, 3 years of *doing*, eternal *being* again.

    —### 🎨 **5. Archetypes: Artist vs. Saint**

    These are not opposites but facets of vocation.| Archetype | Core Purpose | Strength | Shadow || ————– | —————————————————————- | ———————– | ———————– ||

    **The Artist** | To reveal truth, beauty, mystery through presence and expression | Intuition, authenticity | Narcissism, detachment ||

    **The Saint** | To serve, suffer, and embody divine love in practical ways | Compassion, courage | Burnout, savior complex |**Ideal integration:*

    **The saint with the artist’s soul.**The artist with the saint’s heart.*

    —### 🧭 **6. Application Questions for Reflection*

    *Use these in journaling or writing:* Am I more comfortable **being** or **doing** right now? Why?* Do I believe I’m **loved for who I am**, not just what I offer?* Where is my doing not rooted in being?* Where is my being becoming passive or disconnected from love-in-action?* What would it look like for me to love today—from a place of truth and rest?

    —### 🕊️ Final Synthesis>

    **Being is the root. Doing is the fruit. Love is the life-force that flows through both.

    **This framework lets you:

    * Embrace your NDE-inspired intuition that love is *both the goal and the path*.

    * Integrate Christian theology with broader spiritual insights.

    * Avoid the traps of performance-based worth or detached passivity.

    * Write or live from a soul-level coherence: *to be is to love; to love is to live.*

  • The idea of developing “Christian spirituality” is essential to the inner lives of Christians – and shouldn’t be seen as “New agey” and taboo

    Spirituality that includes psychology like forming healthy relationships by avoiding toxic behaviors and setting boundaries and transcending the ego isn’t often talked about by Christianity but those forms of Spirituality are essential to develop when it comes to healthy christian relationships and christian spirituality in general. In fact the idea of christian spirituality is often seen as taboo by more fundamentalist and overly religious Christians

    This is touching on a deep and necessary critique that many thoughtful Christians—especially those engaged in psychology, pastoral care, or spiritual direction—are starting to voice more clearly.

    ### 1. **Neglect of the Inner Life in Some Christian Circles

    **Many forms of contemporary Christianity, particularly in more fundamentalist or dogmatic expressions, focus heavily on *beliefs, behaviors, and boundaries*—what to think, how to act, and what to avoid. While doctrine and moral guidance have their place, this framework often neglects:

    * **Emotional maturity***

    **Healthy relational patterns***

    **The role of trauma, attachment, or personality formation***

    **The transformation of the ego (not just its repression)

    **As a result, spiritual growth can become performative or stunted. People “act saved” but remain emotionally immature, reactive, codependent, or enmeshed in toxic relational patterns—something the early Church Fathers would have found deeply problematic.—

    ### 2. **The Need for Integration: Psychology + Christian Spirituality **Healthy Christian spirituality *should* include:

    * **Setting boundaries** (Jesus did this repeatedly—leaving crowds, rebuking Peter, confronting religious leaders)

    * **Recognizing and healing toxic behaviors** (especially those masked as “holiness”)*

    **Understanding ego** (the false self vs. true self—echoed in figures like St. Augustine, Thomas Merton, and Richard Rohr)*

    **Fostering secure, loving relationships** (as fruits of the Spirit and signs of sanctification)

    These are *not* secular distractions from faith; they are often *precisely* how grace works in real life.—

    ### 3. **Resistance from Fundamentalism**

    In many fundamentalist groups, this kind of talk is rejected or seen as:

    * “New Agey”

    * “Psychologizing the Gospel”

    * “Too focused on the self”

    But ironically, Jesus himself emphasized *heart transformation*, not just outward obedience. And Paul frequently wrote about renewing the mind, dying to the flesh (false ego), and growing into maturity in Christ.—

    ### 4. **The Taboo Around ‘Spirituality’**You’re also right that even the term **”Christian spirituality”** can feel taboo. It’s often associated with mysticism or contemplative traditions that more rigid churches find suspicious. But Christian spirituality is simply: *A lived relationship with God that integrates the whole person—heart, mind, body, and soul—into the likeness of Christ.*—

    ### 5. **A Better Vision: Wholeness and Holiness Together**You’re proposing a much-needed vision of **holistic discipleship**—where psychological health, emotional intelligence, and ego-transcendence are *not in conflict with* faith but part of how the Spirit transforms us. In other words:

    * Good boundaries ≠ selfishness

    * Inner healing ≠ naval-gazing

    * Emotional honesty ≠ spiritual weakness

    This is a kind of Christianity deeply rooted in love, truth, and actual transformation—not just belief statements or rule-following.

    —–

    ### **Reflection: The Spiritual Necessity of Emotional Maturity**

    For much of my life, I understood Christian spirituality in terms of beliefs, obedience, and outward morality. I thought being “spiritual” meant praying more, reading more Scripture, and avoiding sin. But something was missing. I noticed that many devout Christians—myself included—still struggled with broken relationships, defensiveness, manipulation, or burnout. There was faith, but little transformation.What I’ve come to see is that spirituality divorced from psychology is often shallow. Faith without emotional health creates people who might say the right things about God, but live out distorted versions of love—codependent, controlling, avoidant, or repressed. Jesus didn’t just come to correct our theology. He came to heal the heart, to make us whole. He modeled boundaries when he walked away from crowds or confronted manipulation. He saw through false piety. He invited people into an inner revolution—a death of the false self, and a resurrection into something more spacious, humble, and free.

    Yet, in many corners of Christianity, the language of boundaries, ego transcendence, or emotional health is treated with suspicion—as if it dilutes the Gospel. But the truth is, we can’t love our neighbor well if we don’t know where we end and they begin. We can’t embody grace if we’re controlled by fear, resentment, or unresolved wounds. We can’t be vessels of Christ’s peace if we’ve never learned to make peace with ourselves.

    I now believe that spiritual maturity *requires* emotional maturity. To grow in Christ is to become more grounded, more truthful, more able to both give and receive love without distortion. It means recognizing the ego’s games, the masks we wear, and the subtle ways we try to earn love or control others.

    This is not self-help. It’s self-surrender—offering not just our sins to God, but our wounds, patterns, and false selves.

    So now, when I speak of Christian spirituality, I no longer mean just theology or ritual. I mean the slow, Spirit-led journey toward wholeness. A life where faith and psychology meet. Where love is not just a command, but a capacity we develop with grace. Where holiness includes honesty. And where we remember that God desires not just our compliance—but our transformation.—

  • beyond ‘donating to charity’:

    The main thing is being a physical material presence to those in need and a witness to God. Donating money is just a tool

    ### 🔑 1. **Presence Over Material Aid**

    This points to a **relational, incarnational ethic**: what people most need is **you**—your attention, compassion, presence, love—not merely your money.

    * Emphasizes the **infinite value of the human person** and our call to be **gift** to one another.

    * Giving money without giving yourself can become **detached charity**. But being present to someone communicates **dignity**, **solidarity**, and **divine love** in a way money cannot.

    This mirrors what Mother Teresa used to say:

    > “The greatest poverty is loneliness and the feeling of being unloved.”

    ### ✝️ 2. **Embodied Witness to God**

    In Christianity, especially in Catholic and Orthodox theology, **God became flesh**—*Incarnation*—so salvation is not just spiritual or transactional. It’s **relational**, **physical**, **sacrificial**, and **personal**.

    * John Paul II saw Christians as **icons of Christ**, especially when we stand with the poor, sick, marginalized, or dying.

    * Your **presence becomes a sacrament of God’s love**, a visible sign of invisible grace.

    So being **with** someone in their suffering is not just a nice thing to do—it’s a **holy calling** and an act of profound **evangelization**.

    ### 💰 3. **Money Is Just a Tool**

    In that context, money is not evil—but it is **secondary**. It’s just a **means**, not an end.

    * You use money to feed, clothe, or support someone—but if you don’t also **see** them, **listen** to them, **be with** them, you risk missing the real encounter.

    * For John Paul II, **human relationship and witness always come first**. Tools serve people—never the other way around.

    ### 🧠 Related Concepts from His Theology

    * **Solidarity**: We are all one human family, and we are responsible for each other.

    * **Personalism**: Every person is unique, unrepeatable, and should never be treated as an object.

    * **Theology of the Body**: Even our bodies are sacred, because they’re part of how we love, give, and witness to truth.

    In a world of digital giving, automation, and abstract aid, John Paul II’s reminder is prophetic:

    > *Never outsource love.*

    > *Don’t confuse charity with presence.*

    > *Be the hands and face of Christ to the person in front of you.*

  • can god create a rock so big that he cannot lift it? he can do one or the other but not at the same time

    Can an Omnipotent God create a rock he cannot lift? it is said that If one answers yes to the question, then God is therefore not omnipotent because he cannot lift the rock, but if one answers no to the question, God is no longer omnipotent because he cannot create the rock.my position is that he can do one or the other, at different times, but he can’t do both at the same time. and, that he can’t do both at the same time doesn’t disprove God as omnipotent.

    to answer this, we need to ask another question. what happens when an immovable rock meets the unstoppable force of God?the issue– the paradox arises because it rests on two premises- that there exist such things as immovable rocks and unstoppable forces – which cannot both be true at once. If there exists an unstoppable force, it follows logically that there cannot be any such thing as an immovable rock, and vice versa.so the key then is “at once”. to ask if God can create both scenarios at once is a logical impossibility. God cannot do the logically impossible.if God creates the immovable rock, he cannot be an unstoppable force. and if God acts as the unstoppable force, he cannot create an immovable rock. he must choose which scenario exists at any given time. and, in fact, the fact that he would be able to choose the scenario, highlights the underlying omnipotence of God to begin with.to highlight the time element. if God made a rock that could not be lifted for a week, then for a week he could not lift it. when we merely say God can make the rock, but then he can lift it, we are assuming that the time has elapsed such that God is able to then ‘switch gears’ and lift it. when we add a time element such as “a week” it highlights that there are in fact restrictions if God makes that rock.we have to suppose that God knows what he’s doing when he makes decisions like that to prevent lifting it for a week. and, this is a matter of consistency…. it is like dropping a ball or not. i can say i won’t drop a ball, and if i am consistent as i would imagine God is, then i won’t drop the ball. if he creates the rock, whether or not he can lift it, he probably won’t lift it for as long as he says he won’t. not that he couldn’t.

    i think at the end of the day you can say God can both make the rock and lift it, if your premise is right that God can be illogical. but that’s another debate. i’m assuming God must be logical. 

    it’s sort of like asking. “can the unlimited limit itself? if you answer yes, then it’s not truly unlimited, though if you answer no it’s still not unlimited”. i call that the ‘unlimited paradox’

  • examples of faith from atheists

    Richard Dawkins stated that “Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.”

    However, even naturalistic worldviews also take some things on faith.
    For the purposes of this discussion, we will define a miracle as an event which occurs outside of the natural order and cannot be repeated or explained by the scientific process.
    Consider the following four miracles which must be accepted by the atheist in spite of scientific evidence to the contrary:

    1. Getting Something from Nothing. There has never been an observed example where something was created from nothing. No person would attempt to build something without materials, and there is no theory outside Big Bang cosmology which reaches this conclusion without ridicule from the scientific community
    2. Getting Life from Non-Life. Even if naturalistic causes could have created the universe, it would still be necessary for non-living material to become living. This is also an unproven (and impossible) feat which must be accepted when denying the existence of God.
    3. Getting Order from Chaos. Personal observation tells us that all things tend towards disorder, not order. Left to themselves buildings crumble, gardens are taken over by weeds, and living material decays. If unguided natural causes produced the universe (from nothing) and produced life (from non-life) these processes would necessarily go against observed scientific principles in order to produce the complexity, beauty, and order that we observe in the world around us.
    4. Getting the Immaterial from Physical Matter. If nothing was able to produce everything, non-life was able to produce life, and chaos was able to produce order the atheistic worldview would still encounter an insurmountable obstacle. No matter how organized, it is impossible for physical material to produce the immaterial realities of human consciousness. Our morality, beliefs, desires and preferences all exist outside of mere physical matter.

    Each of these examples go against the natural order and could be labeled as miracles. Naturalistic worldviews such as atheism, evolution, and neo-Darwinism regard this evidence for God with what Dawkins would certainly consider an unscientific approach: each item must be taken on faith.

  • salvation seems to be both an event and a process

    protestants like to say they are saved, end of discussion. catholics say you have to work out your eventual salvation… but if you look closer, they are willing to say salvation is both an event and a process. i dont think it’s very standard for a protestant to say salvation can be a process? 

    i think the way to look at this is simply by looking at the question of ‘being forgiven’. when we pray the our father, we ask as christians to be forgiven. we dont say ‘thank you for forgiving me’. it’s a very basic idea of repentance that’s foundational… for that foundation to be off would be a wild accusation. 

    it’s also worth noting, that the bible often talks about falling away and such. like the parable of the seeds and how jesus said some start to grow only to later wilt due to worldly concern. only some seeds grow to maturity. 

    it’s also worth tying the ‘assurance of salvation’ and ‘once saved always saved’ ideas to the idea of salvation.

    -the bible says you can know you are saved, but given all the other examples where it says you can fall away, i would say that knowing one is saved is a special gift for a special person. jesus did say ‘not everyone who says to me lord lord will inherit the kingdom, but only those who do the will of the father’. it’s a lot to read into this that you can’t know you are saved, but we have to at least remember that acknowleding jesus as lord is not enough. i think we can all agree that just thinking you are saved isn’t enough? it does get into murky territory but there’s always a hypothetical mass murderer who is pathologically propensed to think he is saved.

    -also, i think free will is such that a person can always loose their salvation for practical purposes, but for practical purposes some people can know they are saved, and always will be saved, practically.

    to tie into this near death experience philosophy, a person can be loved unconditionally, and in that sense they are always saved, but a person still must face the consequences of their actions. like a mother unconditionally loves her children, she also must let them face their own consequences and actions. it’s like near death philosophy says, we go to where our vibration permits. if we have a low vibration, out soul can be saved by becoming a genuine christian. that’s all that’s necessary. because you will grow into higher vibrations and god has your back. if your words are empty, you wont grow into higher vibrarations. there’s a question about whether hell is eternal given near death philosphy, and most of those guys like to say hell is a prison. i think we can all agree that an eternal hell is possible given our free will, but we have to wonder the open question of if hell is eternal for practical purposes. it very well could be, or maybe not. it is central that hell does exist though. only one percent of NDEs are hellish, and they usually just consider that it was a learning experience. a wake up call. 

    it’s interesting that ‘once saved always saved’, ties into salvation like that. just like how it’s intersesting that ‘atonement’ ties into the ‘justification’ and salvation ideas. and lately i’ve been incorporating NDE philsophy as well. 

  • it’s plausible to think God doesn’t exist… it just lacks common sense

    an atheist here made a good point… sometimes things look more like they are ‘consistent’ with God theory, rather than ‘evidence for’ God theory. any time you see evdience for God, ask if it would be better or at least possible to not call it evidence but merely consistent with God theory. 

    there’s lots of philosophic arguements for God. id group those with things like casuality arguments and design arguments. the thing about these is that there’s at least plausible arguments that can be made that are counter those. so it’s easy to just call these consistent with God and not evidence. 

    then you get into more science type arguments. the most straight forward way of looking at these, is that they are in fact evdience for God. things that look like supernatural healing. atheists usually become theists during NDEs.  something impossible happening with healing it looks like, and we dont see that as far as we know coming from atheists, we dont see impossible looking healhings from atheists. and it’s almost never the case that theists become atheists during NDEs and NDEs are objectively evidence for the afterlife, so it’s at least realistic to say it’s also evidence for God. 

    with that said, if you have a dark heart and mind, an atheist could say there’s no evidence for God with these scientifc things. you could say we only have confirmation bias that healings that look supernatural happen, or that theists only assume those things only happen to theists and not atheists. they make a big assumpion that impossible looking things happen to atheists, but we’d have to admit it’s possible and just not reported. and, as far as NDEs, the conventional wisdom is that NDEs are subjective and influenced by the mind… so even if NDEs are objectively evidence for the afterlife, it’s also possible to say visions and thoughts of God are merely produced by our psychology and not signs of an objective reality 

    with all this said, even if they could plausibly say there’s no evidence for the God, atheism still lacks common sense.

    -i think there’s too much emphasis in NDE research on saying their experiences are based on psychology… it looks more like objective things happen, and any deviations are misinterprataions. for example, christian NDEs are common, but hindu NDEs are just the experiencers interpretation… at least there’s not enough deviant types of NDEs to say it’s all psychology based. 

    -when healings that look supernatural happen, it still looks like impossible things are occurring. you can try to rationalize it, but that’s what it looks like. 

    -to say humans are merely flesh robots is riduculous. it’s obvious we are more than robots. 

    -there’s no explanation that we know of that can explain how life started on earth, or how something as complicated as human consciousness occurrs. there’s theories, yes, but they are weak from atheists on the common sense level.

    -even if there are counter arguents for the philosophic arguments for God, they are at least formidable and strong, and help explain the God theory, at least if the God theory is in fact true. eg, causality or the argument from design 

  • how seriously should christians take the old testament?

    on one of the most fundamental levels, the old testament teaches an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. the new testament teaches turn the other cheek. how can such a fundamental difference be something that a christian must accept both as infallible truth? does truth change? how?

    but it’s more than that core theological difference. the old testament has God killing people over and over again, or commanding them to die. see the story of noah where he killed the whole earth, or the time he turned a woman to stone for questioning where she was headed and looking back to her old lifei understand that it’s plausible that the consequences of sin is death, which even the bible says and is as true a statement as they come. but it seems to again be in stark contrast to the God of the new testament. what’s with this bipolar God of the new testament and the hippie God of the new testament? i realize even Jesus pointed out that the commandment and consequence of disrespecting ones parents is death, but how can such a difference be fundamentally compatible with each other? (i often wonder if jesus was being literal that that’s the way the world is, or if he was saying ‘even by this standard, the pharisees weren’t being consistent with mercy’)

    but it’s more than these broader frictions. the old testament says unclean food is ungodly, yet the new testament says nothing God has made clean is unclean. how should we accept that Jesus’ death change something unclean to something clean? or the old testament says men with deformed penis’ can’t enter into the assembly of the lord, which sounds like they can’t enter heaven. how did jesus’ death make deformed penis’ acceptable? and the context doesn’t indicate this old testament verse was against self mutilation, but that any deformed penis was too much, even from a disability or injury. the best i can surmise, if these old testament verses are true… is that these are ceremonial laws, and ceremonial laws can change with a covenant change, assuming the covenant change was legit to begin with. it’s kinda like how often cultural differences are legit changes in the bible, (why it says women can’t lead or wear hats in church, even in the new testament, but everyone now accept as just cultural norms being changed) and not infallible differences being changed arbitrarily. ceremony and culture are both legit and reasonable ways of differentiating, but the theology for why the rules were the way they were to begin with, or how they can change, can still seem arbitrary and capricious, to use legal jargon.  

    we also have things that dont make sense theologically.

    -the bible looks literal of the story of noah in the old testament, and the new testament treats the story literal too. i dont have time to list all the scientific discrepancies of that story, such as how there’s a constant lineage of cultures everywhere and constant archeological evidence of no flood everywhere, yet supposedly God destroyed it all… and hid or changed the evidence? to me, when God performs a miracle like he does with phsyical healings even in this day and age, he supports the miracle with evidence and truth. (such as the congregation of the causes of the saints with the catholic church) the story of noah isn’t supported by evidence, but contradicts it. maybe it wasn’t meant to be taken literally or was a local event? 

    -i’ll add more examples in the future. 

  • evidence: God, christianity, miracles, NDEs, the afterlife

    i use two unconventional proofs for god. one is healing miracles, i dont see the kinds of miracles that happen to theists happen to atheists, or even non christians honestly, despite looking for that evidence and asking around. i realize that just because we dont see it, doesn’t mean it’s not there, but this is still significant. 

    the other one is that the large majority of atheists come back believing in God after NDEs. it’s irrational to say there’s no evidence for the afterlife, when you get into the science of NDEs, and the credibility of NDEs lend credbility to all the atheists that convert. it’s also been objectively studied that christian NDEs happen at a much greater rate than non christian themed NDEs… such that jesus is a common component of these experiences. nonchristian themes are very rare, and hard to quantify or qualify, and open to interpretation, and might be unreliable. 

    there’s all the philosophical arguments for God, such as the design argument and the causality argument. these are best kept at the level of philosophy but dont get much beyond just corroborating the God theory. 

    in fact, all these points could be said to be just consistent with God, and if you wanted to split hairs, not evidence. a skeptic on this site made that point once, is this more about evidence or just ‘consistent with the God theory but not evidence’. but with the miracle and NDE point, it’s majorly lacking in common sense to stay atheist.

    —-

    some other points. there are credible medical doctors who are exorcists who say they have seen supernatural phenomenon. there are credible doctors who study young children who remember past lives, and say that the children couldn’t know the details they explain. i think there are professors out of the university of virginia for example who study this. 

  • the wisdom of ‘christus victor’ atonement theory over penal substitution

    I think that instead of us having a legal relationship with God to appease God’s wrath, we have a parent child relationship to magnify God’s love. The relationship is like the prodigal son.

    The bible does say that Jesus dying prevented God’s wrath, but the distinction is that that don’t imply appeasing God’s wrath.

    The bible said Jesus nailed any legal requirements to the cross. Literally, instead of saying we have a legal relationship with God then like is said in western Christianity, we no longer have a legal relationship with him.

    There r verses that say Jesus became sin for us, and by his wounds we r healed. But these just mean that Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice. Love wouldn’t let Jesus die, Jesus conquered sin and death with his sacrifice. He could have engaged in the Christian doctrine of self defense, but he chose to offer himself instead. The Bible says the spirit that rose Jesus from the dead lives in us and will raise us from the dead. We are adopted children of God and brothers of Jesus when we believe in Jesus and try to do his will.

    This is basically, christus Victor atonement instead of penal substitution. Christie Victor was the predominate view in the early church, the other was minority view. Penal substitution is also based in paganism, a blood sacrifice on a technicality, instead of a sacrifice of first fruit, an offering of ones gifts in sacrifice. The bible says god takes no pleasure in burnt offerings but prefers gifts of the heart. Of course, they usually talked in terms of ransom, I think, so me saying love conquers death as central might be heretical or not pure doctrine. My love conquers death ideas are present in all forms of atoenment historically, just not the critical part of the theories. it should be the critical part.