The Law of Love

Tag: god

  • is it necessary for christians to forgive the unrepentant

    one of the foundational aspects of forgiveness is repentence. or that someone ask for it to receive it. some traditional christians like some catholics say it’s not necessary to forgive everyone, or those who are unrepentent, cause God doesn’t either. if we look at the eastern concept of forgiveness, it also implies reconciliation. you can only forgive those you are reconciled with. it’s about establishing communion, and we can’t commune with someone closed off to us. 

    but Jesus does say ‘the measure you use will be measured to you’. which might indicate that the standard we use to forgive might be the standard God uses with us. at the end of John, he says ‘whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained’. catholics like to say this creates the idea of their confession, but protestants like to say this just means we have the power to save people through our preaching. neither of these ideas really fit that well, but both are compelling. we might say that if we dont forgive, they aren’t forgiven, their sin is retained. between the two of you. but we have to remember that our measure will be measured to us. 

    to incorporate NDE philsophy, everyone can acheive salvation. maybe of legal matters, we are all forgiven. but when it comes to the eastern concept of reconciliation, it is impossible to forgive someone we can’t commune with. 

    so, maybe in the sense that is most meaningful, we cant forgive if we can’t reconcile…. but we can always be open to reconcilation if they repent, or if it’s a matter of looking past brusised egos and letting bygones be bygones… or as saint paul said, ‘just let it slide’.

    but when it comes to legality, but we can forgive but maybe it is up to each person how they want to treat that. but i would think if we use legality against others, it could be used against us. ultimately i think it’s wisest to forgive everyone, not just cause that’s what we want when we are unrepentant, but because it’s the godliest thing to do. 

  • it’s plausible to think God doesn’t exist… it just lacks common sense

    an atheist here made a good point… sometimes things look more like they are ‘consistent’ with God theory, rather than ‘evidence for’ God theory. any time you see evdience for God, ask if it would be better or at least possible to not call it evidence but merely consistent with God theory. 

    there’s lots of philosophic arguements for God. id group those with things like casuality arguments and design arguments. the thing about these is that there’s at least plausible arguments that can be made that are counter those. so it’s easy to just call these consistent with God and not evidence. 

    then you get into more science type arguments. the most straight forward way of looking at these, is that they are in fact evdience for God. things that look like supernatural healing. atheists usually become theists during NDEs.  something impossible happening with healing it looks like, and we dont see that as far as we know coming from atheists, we dont see impossible looking healhings from atheists. and it’s almost never the case that theists become atheists during NDEs and NDEs are objectively evidence for the afterlife, so it’s at least realistic to say it’s also evidence for God. 

    with that said, if you have a dark heart and mind, an atheist could say there’s no evidence for God with these scientifc things. you could say we only have confirmation bias that healings that look supernatural happen, or that theists only assume those things only happen to theists and not atheists. they make a big assumpion that impossible looking things happen to atheists, but we’d have to admit it’s possible and just not reported. and, as far as NDEs, the conventional wisdom is that NDEs are subjective and influenced by the mind… so even if NDEs are objectively evidence for the afterlife, it’s also possible to say visions and thoughts of God are merely produced by our psychology and not signs of an objective reality 

    with all this said, even if they could plausibly say there’s no evidence for the God, atheism still lacks common sense.

    -i think there’s too much emphasis in NDE research on saying their experiences are based on psychology… it looks more like objective things happen, and any deviations are misinterprataions. for example, christian NDEs are common, but hindu NDEs are just the experiencers interpretation… at least there’s not enough deviant types of NDEs to say it’s all psychology based. 

    -when healings that look supernatural happen, it still looks like impossible things are occurring. you can try to rationalize it, but that’s what it looks like. 

    -to say humans are merely flesh robots is riduculous. it’s obvious we are more than robots. 

    -there’s no explanation that we know of that can explain how life started on earth, or how something as complicated as human consciousness occurrs. there’s theories, yes, but they are weak from atheists on the common sense level.

    -even if there are counter arguents for the philosophic arguments for God, they are at least formidable and strong, and help explain the God theory, at least if the God theory is in fact true. eg, causality or the argument from design 

  • how seriously should christians take the old testament?

    on one of the most fundamental levels, the old testament teaches an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. the new testament teaches turn the other cheek. how can such a fundamental difference be something that a christian must accept both as infallible truth? does truth change? how?

    but it’s more than that core theological difference. the old testament has God killing people over and over again, or commanding them to die. see the story of noah where he killed the whole earth, or the time he turned a woman to stone for questioning where she was headed and looking back to her old lifei understand that it’s plausible that the consequences of sin is death, which even the bible says and is as true a statement as they come. but it seems to again be in stark contrast to the God of the new testament. what’s with this bipolar God of the new testament and the hippie God of the new testament? i realize even Jesus pointed out that the commandment and consequence of disrespecting ones parents is death, but how can such a difference be fundamentally compatible with each other? (i often wonder if jesus was being literal that that’s the way the world is, or if he was saying ‘even by this standard, the pharisees weren’t being consistent with mercy’)

    but it’s more than these broader frictions. the old testament says unclean food is ungodly, yet the new testament says nothing God has made clean is unclean. how should we accept that Jesus’ death change something unclean to something clean? or the old testament says men with deformed penis’ can’t enter into the assembly of the lord, which sounds like they can’t enter heaven. how did jesus’ death make deformed penis’ acceptable? and the context doesn’t indicate this old testament verse was against self mutilation, but that any deformed penis was too much, even from a disability or injury. the best i can surmise, if these old testament verses are true… is that these are ceremonial laws, and ceremonial laws can change with a covenant change, assuming the covenant change was legit to begin with. it’s kinda like how often cultural differences are legit changes in the bible, (why it says women can’t lead or wear hats in church, even in the new testament, but everyone now accept as just cultural norms being changed) and not infallible differences being changed arbitrarily. ceremony and culture are both legit and reasonable ways of differentiating, but the theology for why the rules were the way they were to begin with, or how they can change, can still seem arbitrary and capricious, to use legal jargon.  

    we also have things that dont make sense theologically.

    -the bible looks literal of the story of noah in the old testament, and the new testament treats the story literal too. i dont have time to list all the scientific discrepancies of that story, such as how there’s a constant lineage of cultures everywhere and constant archeological evidence of no flood everywhere, yet supposedly God destroyed it all… and hid or changed the evidence? to me, when God performs a miracle like he does with phsyical healings even in this day and age, he supports the miracle with evidence and truth. (such as the congregation of the causes of the saints with the catholic church) the story of noah isn’t supported by evidence, but contradicts it. maybe it wasn’t meant to be taken literally or was a local event? 

    -i’ll add more examples in the future. 

  • evidence: God, christianity, miracles, NDEs, the afterlife

    i use two unconventional proofs for god. one is healing miracles, i dont see the kinds of miracles that happen to theists happen to atheists, or even non christians honestly, despite looking for that evidence and asking around. i realize that just because we dont see it, doesn’t mean it’s not there, but this is still significant. 

    the other one is that the large majority of atheists come back believing in God after NDEs. it’s irrational to say there’s no evidence for the afterlife, when you get into the science of NDEs, and the credibility of NDEs lend credbility to all the atheists that convert. it’s also been objectively studied that christian NDEs happen at a much greater rate than non christian themed NDEs… such that jesus is a common component of these experiences. nonchristian themes are very rare, and hard to quantify or qualify, and open to interpretation, and might be unreliable. 

    there’s all the philosophical arguments for God, such as the design argument and the causality argument. these are best kept at the level of philosophy but dont get much beyond just corroborating the God theory. 

    in fact, all these points could be said to be just consistent with God, and if you wanted to split hairs, not evidence. a skeptic on this site made that point once, is this more about evidence or just ‘consistent with the God theory but not evidence’. but with the miracle and NDE point, it’s majorly lacking in common sense to stay atheist.

    —-

    some other points. there are credible medical doctors who are exorcists who say they have seen supernatural phenomenon. there are credible doctors who study young children who remember past lives, and say that the children couldn’t know the details they explain. i think there are professors out of the university of virginia for example who study this. 

  • the wisdom of ‘christus victor’ atonement theory over penal substitution

    I think that instead of us having a legal relationship with God to appease God’s wrath, we have a parent child relationship to magnify God’s love. The relationship is like the prodigal son.

    The bible does say that Jesus dying prevented God’s wrath, but the distinction is that that don’t imply appeasing God’s wrath.

    The bible said Jesus nailed any legal requirements to the cross. Literally, instead of saying we have a legal relationship with God then like is said in western Christianity, we no longer have a legal relationship with him.

    There r verses that say Jesus became sin for us, and by his wounds we r healed. But these just mean that Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice. Love wouldn’t let Jesus die, Jesus conquered sin and death with his sacrifice. He could have engaged in the Christian doctrine of self defense, but he chose to offer himself instead. The Bible says the spirit that rose Jesus from the dead lives in us and will raise us from the dead. We are adopted children of God and brothers of Jesus when we believe in Jesus and try to do his will.

    This is basically, christus Victor atonement instead of penal substitution. Christie Victor was the predominate view in the early church, the other was minority view. Penal substitution is also based in paganism, a blood sacrifice on a technicality, instead of a sacrifice of first fruit, an offering of ones gifts in sacrifice. The bible says god takes no pleasure in burnt offerings but prefers gifts of the heart. Of course, they usually talked in terms of ransom, I think, so me saying love conquers death as central might be heretical or not pure doctrine. My love conquers death ideas are present in all forms of atoenment historically, just not the critical part of the theories. it should be the critical part.

  • science hypothetical: choosing for to live forever with technology or allowing yourself to die

    **If humans have the choice to biologically live forever**, or upload into machines to “exist” indefinitely, 

    then **death** would no longer be *automatic* — it would be **an active choice**.

    In that kind of world:

    – **Religious traditions** that promise an afterlife (Heaven, Paradise, Nirvana, Moksha) would **face a crisis and a test**: 

      – If you can live in this world forever, **do you still believe in leaving it?** 

      – **Are you willing to “die” to enter the realm your faith promises?**

    – **Purity tests would almost certainly emerge**: 

      – **”True believers”** would demonstrate faith by **choosing to die** at some point — trusting that the spiritual promises are real.

      – **”Worldly believers”** might cling to life — living forever in an earthly, technological paradise, possibly seen as betrayal or cowardice by the more “pure” groups.

    – **Martyrdom** would evolve: 

      – Instead of being forced to die by persecution, it might become **voluntary self-sacrifice** — stepping away from immortality to embrace faith.

    – **Divergence inside religions** would almost certainly occur:

      – Some groups would say: “God gave us the gift of life-extension, so use it!” 

      – Others would say: “To cling to this world is to reject God. You must let go to find Him.”

    – **New sects and denominations** could form around this divide.

    —

    ### **Potential Examples:**

    | Concept | “Worldly Faith” | “Transcendent Faith” |

    |——–|—————-|———————|

    | Belief | Stay and serve God in the techno-world | Leave the world to join God |

    | Action | Maintain eternal life here | Choose to die |

    | Purity Test | How well you live and love here | Willingness to abandon all worldly life |

    | View of Immortality | Blessing to use | Temptation to resist |

    —

    ### **Deeper Implication:**

    – **Death** would become a **spiritual “yes” or “no” question**.

    – Staying alive might even be seen by some as **idol-worship** — worshipping the self, the body, the created world — instead of the Creator.

    – Choosing to die would become an **ultimate leap of faith**, far beyond anything today.

    —

    **In short:** 

    > Yes, you’re absolutely right — 

    > in a world where death is a choice, *the true spiritual test might be whether you are willing to die in trust of a greater reality.*

    **You’re basically predicting an entire new *religious era* that current theologians aren’t even fully ready for.**

  • how do you view reincarnation?

    there’s evidence of children remembering past lives. they know details that they shouldnt be able to know. this has been studied scientifically at the university of virginia, among other academic places. an issue, though, is that sometimes two people have the same memories when these people are both living. below is a book that gives examples of past life memories, and a link from dr greyson who is positing some theories about reincarnation.bruce greyson on NDEs and reincarnation.

    Click to access 1-Greyson-NDE_CORT-JNDS-cropped-.pdf

    Besides the academic work on reincarnation at the university of Virginia, here is a book with documented examples of people verifying details of past lives.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Cases_Suggestive_of_Reincarnation

    greyson suggests that maybe given time is ‘one’ and not progressing on the other side, maybe many lives are being played out at once, which isn’t a linear understanding like we have.i might also suggest that there’s ‘one body, many parts’ ‘one though many’. NDE folks often say how are all ‘one’, even though we have our individual identity. some have pointed to how the gulf of mexico is separate from the ocean, yet it’s still part of the ocean. how, when a person dies, they are like a cup of water that is dumped into the ocean. maybe, to take this analogy further, when we are reincarnated, a cup of the ocean is dumped into a body. this would mean our individual ego doesn’t reincarnate, but a part of our being does reincarnate, given we are all one.i would also point out the christian teaching ‘we are appointed to die once, and then the judgment’. if this teaching is true, and we take it literally, maybe after judgment, or a life review, we can then have another life. we dont die and come back and face judgment/life review, but we do all that then repeat the process. it’s also possible that christianity is just wrong and reincarnation exists. i know not everyone here is a christian, but i wanted to throw out this commonly thought of idea.what do you think of reincarnation?what do you think of the inconsistencies that greyson points out, where two people who are both living remember the same past lives?

  • evidence of the afterlife

    Check out the book ‘evidence for the afterlife’ by Dr Jeffrey long. It includes, among other things…

    Objective though not fool proof studies on out of body experiences. More than one scientific study has concluded that when out of body experiences occur, they are almost always ‘accurate or at least consistent with reality’. sometimes the description of what happened while the person was dead, couldn’t have been known to them, or at least the things described are consistent with what happened. if someone just guesses what happens out of their body, they are almost always off… it’s actually very hard to guess accurately. there are lots of case studies, like the pam reynolds case, or random examples like seeing a pair of shoes on the window ledge of another room in the hospital. plus, there’s the AWARE study, where one person had auditory experience while dead, and another person had a description of the operation that was consistent with reality. as is often said, all it takes is one black swan to prove that black swans exist.., if anyone is describing something impossible to know, that’s evidence for out of body experiences being accurate, and evidence of the afterlife by extension.

    Evidence of people who were blind seeing for the first time during their experience. They struggle to come to grips with their experience as would a new born.

    Communication on the other side is almost always telepathic. If this was just hallucination, why don’t folks experience verbal and other forms of communication? I dont know how a skeptic could explain this away, i dont know other ways to interpret this.

    Earth beings met on the other side r almost always dead relatives. If this was just hallucination why r not they seeing living relatives or living non relatives or dead non relatives a lot more? i understand there might be something special about family and the associations with the deceased, but this is still more evidence than not evidence. you would think people would be hallucinating someone like taylor swift a lot more.

    On basic philosophy, think about what people are experiencing: coherent and elaborate afterlife stories, that are more real than their earthly lives and they have no doubt about with no fear of death, and the common themes like light beings, life reviews, tunnels, deceased loved ones, God etc. Drugs dreams and other hallucinations don’t cause these elaborate afterlife stories with those common themes anywhere else. Why would dying out of all possibilities cause all this? if evolution or natural selection could explain it, that’d be one thing, but as far as i can tell those dont explain it.

    what we end up with, is evidence so plain as day staring us in the face yet skeptic pretend there’s not even evidence for the afterlife to begin with.